Gregg Masters 00:04
This episode of PopHealth Week is sponsored by Health Innovation Media. Health Innovation Media brings your brand narrative alive both on the ground in the virtual space for major trade show conference in Innovation Summit via our signature pop up studio. Connect with us at www.popupstudio.productions. I’m Gregg Masters Managing Director of Health Innovation Media and the producer co-host of PopHealth Week. Joining me in the virtual studio is my colleague, co-founder and principal co-host of PopHealth Week Fred Goldstein, President of Accountable Health, LLC. Our guest today is Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beudet PhD. Doctor Ayotte-Beudet a works at La Universite de Sherbrooke ‘enseignement au préscolaire et au primaire, also known as the Department of preschool and primary education. He conducts research in science education. His interests include outdoor science, contextualization, learning transfer, students’ interest, environmental education, elementary education and secondary education. And with that introduction over to you, Fred, help us get to know Professor Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beudet
Fred Goldstein 01:24
Thank you so much, Greg and Jean-Philippe welcome to PopHealth Week.
Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beaudet 01:27
Thank you.
Fred Goldstein 01:28
It’s a pleasure to have you. And I hope things are well on the across the northern border up there in Canada. We’re so glad you joined us on today’s show. So why don’t we start? Could you give our audience a little sense of your background and the work you’re doing?
Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beaudet 01:41
Yes. So, I’m a professor at the University of Sherbrooke in science education. And I’m also the Director of a Research Center, about the teaching and learning science. And I was a high school teacher before so in science also. So, this is my background.
Fred Goldstein 02:02
And Sherbrooke is located where and how many students are there?
Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beaudet 02:06
It’s located in the province of Quebec, it’s a French speaking province. It’s the French part of the of Canada. And we have I’m not sure how many students may I think that it’s around 12,000 students.
Fred Goldstein 02:21
And your background you said was was science education? I know, you’ve recently published a number of articles on COVID and reopening and looking at outdoors. So, talk a little bit about your research on in that area.
Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beaudet 02:33
Yeah, so my research is about outdoor education. And I’m interested in elementary education and also high school education. And I’ve been interested for many years in outdoor education, because for me, it’s a way to connect students with real life. So, when we are at school, or at university, we want students to learn things that will be more than only to perform during the assessments. But sometimes school is, is there for first school. But we need also to think about, why we are learning things. So, for me outdoors, the outdoors, it’s a way for students to make meaningful learning. So, this is why I’m interested in, in outdoor education. And I think that there’s much more benefits, but that’s why I’m interested in learning in this field.
Fred Goldstein 03:27
Is it from a from a learning perspective and a scientific perspective? Is it just to learn about things outdoors? Or it is it is it a different environment that creates different learning opportunities.
Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beaudet 03:38
In fact, it’s it’s both. I think that there are many reasons to go outdoors in science for me, it’s because we are studying natural phenomena. So, I know that it’s not necessarily the same opportunity in every disciplines. But in science, if you want to, to be in touch with science, I think that we can do this indoors, obviously. But there’s also a lot of opportunities that could be that could happen outdoors to study about the about the natural environment, it could be about geology, about also the meteorology, or you can observe the animals or the plants and the other. So, it’s a concrete way to understand what you are learning at school. And there’s also this is a place also to learn more about if you learn in mathematics, you can, you can do a lot of activities to to calculate things outdoors or to if you are in a language course you can write and be inspired about the real life also. So, there’s a lot of opportunities that call back and outdoor
Fred Goldstein 04:52
and obviously when COVID hit, it kind of changed some of our thinking although a little bit slowly here. We’re still working on it, but I understand you looked into this issue of outdoor learning. And Sherbrooke took some of that into consideration at the university itself.
Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beaudet 05:08
Yes, it was special because I was more interested in elementary and high school education. And my university asked me to be involved in a project. So, we set up around 10 outdoor spaces to teach at the beginning of the semester in September. And we used many spaces, extra spaces in Sherbrooke university to make sure that there was the most activities that we can on the campus. And we use outdoor spaces during the beginning of the semester to add some lessons with also distance lessons. But we wanted to give an experience to the for the new students, especially the that’s what we did. And it was there’s not a lot of research about how to use these spaces in ecology. Obviously, it’s in higher education. There’s a lot of hard work, but there were teachers and professors in many, in many disciplines that use this space.
Fred Goldstein 06:05
So, when you say you used outdoor spaces, did you set up tents, or awnings or just locations or all of the above?
Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beaudet 06:13
We did everything. We tested everything. Yeah, we added a tent, we had also some spaces that were more spontaneous, we had also like outdoor auditorium. So, we tested many things, because it was the first experience for us, the tent was not necessarily the best way, because maybe it’s it depends on the weather in every part of the world. But when it was raining, it was really noisy. So, there was some kind of issues like that. And it depends also where the tent is located. Because you can be more distracted. Usually when you are going outdoors, we recommend to have more dynamic or active pedagogy. But because of the COVID-19, the students were always at the same place, they weren’t really allowed to move. So, it was there was some distractions. But if we are not in the in the COVID, if we when we won’t be in the COVID, it will be different because we will use differently more active pedagogies. To with the students,
Fred Goldstein 07:17
Just to give a sense here, what were the rules and regulations within the province that might have impacted how you can structure things, were there requirements on distancing and masks and indoor activities.
Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beaudet 07:29
Yes, at this moment, because it changed during the during the year. But we were allowed to, to be in a class with two meters and with the mask. So that was the condition. So obviously, it was not the same number of students that we were able to, to have in a classroom. But we needed to respect the mask and the two meters.
Fred Goldstein 07:55
When you talk about pedagogy, can you explain to our audience, perhaps what that is for those who are not teachers or educators?
Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beaudet 08:02
For me, when we when we want to make learn something, we should ask to ourself, what’s the best way to learn, for them? So, what could be the best way for students to learn? So obviously, the answer is not always just go outdoors. But sometimes, if you want to have concrete meaningful learning, it’s better to go in the outdoors, because it will be easier to transfer the learning when we are not in formal. And when we are not in formal learning spaces. So, this is why I think that it’s important for people to, to always ask to themselves, we are not there to teach. We are there for a student to learn something, and not only for the exam. So, this is what is driven me in education.
Fred Goldstein 08:52
And so, it’s essentially different approaches to to help the student learn that you would apply in a given situation. Is that it
Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beaudet 09:00
Yes, exactly. So, when you are teaching, you need to do ask yourself, what’s the best way for students to learn. So, after this, you need to have to know a lot of different way to teach to make sure that you have always the best way to do it. So sometimes it’s better to give a magistral lesson but sometimes it’s better to make students work together. Sometimes it’s better to be in the field. But we need not to be only in a classroom and listening to teachers. So, if we’re always doing that, well we’re not always adapting our teaching to do the best ways to to learn for students.
Fred Goldstein 09:41
And what was the response from the professors to these outdoor classes? What did they think about that?
Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beaudet 09:48
In fact, they were really optimistic the ones who used the the outer spaces. I know that this year there will be more persons more teachers will want to use these spaces, because we did it really quickly in May, the University decided to go to go ahead with this project. And we did everything so quickly. And we announced everything, only a few weeks before the beginning of the semester. So, it was a special occasion. So, a lot of people use these places, they maybe they are crazy. They weren’t crazy can do that. But you have always some professors or lecture who are ready to try new things, and to adapt to new situations. I’m glad they did it. But I know that a lot of people were looking at them last year and are interested in using these spaces this year. So, this year, the the outdoor spaces will be available from May, so during the semester, the summer semester, but it would be interesting to see who will be using these spaces.
Fred Goldstein 10:59
And did you have any technology brought out there? Did kids have their computers? or any of that? Or was it more generally used?
Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beaudet 11:07
We tried to give Wi Fi in some spaces, we were told, we talked to the teachers what was available on every site, sometimes there was Wi Fi, but we don’t recommend to go outdoors to have the same organization than indoors otherwise, just stay indoors.
Fred Goldstein 11:24
Right
Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beaudet 11:25
If you want to go outdoors, it’s because you think that you could use the space differently to make students work in a group or maybe you’re going to have a an expedition or exploration. Or you’re just going to be in in new settings to think for 30 minutes and you come back inside. I generally do not recommend to put the same settings than indoor because there’s more distractions outdoors. So just stay indoors if students need to listen to you,
Fred Goldstein 11:54
and how did the students feel about these classes?
Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beaudet 11:56
I think that the they liked the experience, we did a survey, what is the most important thing I think so is to think about all the distractions that could be happening in the outdoors. And it was a problem for us because it’s strange, because it was an opportunity. COVID was an opportunity for us. But it was also a problem because the the we want them to use active pedagogy. But but because of the COVID, it was not possible. So, they were more passive than active outdoors. But after COVID-19 I think that people will be more active when they will use the outdoors. And also, they will have the option to go back indoors and go back and forward. So, I think that this kind of disagreements will disappear when we will be in a normal situation.
Fred Goldstein 12:48
In terms of the types of classes you mentioned. There were different classes out there where they you know, doing science and English and dance and different things like that.
Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beaudet 12:57
Yes, exactly. We
Fred Goldstein 13:00
I should say French I guess My apologies.
Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beaudet 13:06
Yeah, no, it’s fine. But yeah, there was a lot of fields represented in our in the lessons that were given outdoors. So, it was interesting for us, because I think that’s what, that’s why it’s a kind of unique, maybe it’s not unique, because there’s always somebody who has done something. But it’s, it’s not common, because usually we don’t see a university offering these kinds of spaces in a formal way. Yes, someone could do it. But it was really encouraged by the university. And Sherbrooke University believes in this in this kind of pedagogy. We, we like to experience new pedagogies and to make sure that our professors can use whatever they want, if they think that it’s the best way to learn.
Fred Goldstein 13:59
And I know it’s obviously a bit colder up there than here now in the winter. And so, what are they doing now
Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beaudet 14:06
Yeah, unfortunately, during the winter, it’s kind of difficult for us. Our outdoor classes were available until the end of October, but we have a cold winter, so it was not available. It will be available from May to October for us. And also, the the weather is really changing. Just to give you an example, we had minus 10 two days ago and today it’s plus ten.
Fred Goldstein 14:34
Wow,
Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beaudet 14:35
it is really not stable. But it’s it’s part of our life here. But it’s easier for teachers in primary or secondary schools because they they have always their students with them so it’s easier to adapt to the weather that is changing and also the they are teaching a lot of subjects so it’s easier to imagine to create activities for a certain subject, but when we are teaching a specific course, at the university, we need to keep focus on a specific field. So, we’re stuck with that.
Fred Goldstein 15:15
Yeah. And understand I think is we talked about before you rented other locations, or the university rented places to hold classes that had larger spaces, like church.
Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beaudet 15:24
Yes, exactly. Yes, we use church, also to, to give some lessons. Yeah, it was really impressive, because we used the many places in the Sherbrooke in Sherbrooke city. So, it was interesting, because it gave us the opportunity also to show some places that the students doesn’t see, necessarily, and I know that there was a history lessons given in these places. So, it was a good context for them.
Fred Goldstein 15:57
Fantastic. And I know you said you’re going to reopen this outdoor in May when the weather gets a little better. Is the plan to continue that post COVID is are there some benefits? You see to keeping that going?
Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beaudet 16:09
Yes, definitely. It was not only for the COVID-19 a situation we want to go ahead. And also, we know that we will be able to use it in a more beneficial way. Can we say that?
Fred Goldstein 16:22
Yes, absolutely. Your English is so great. It’s amazing. I wish my French are half as good as your English.
Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beaudet 16:29
Yes, right, we think that it will be better used after the COVID. So, we want to go on, and there was a lot of attention in Canada, and also from different places. So, we want to continue to be a leader in this in this field. And it was not only for a once in a lifetime. For us, it was something that we want to conduct in the next years. And we want to conduct more research also to study the benefits. And just to give you an example, may Can I give you an example?
Fred Goldstein 17:03
Yeah, absolutely, please.
Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beaudet 17:05
Okay, because we did a survey with primary and secondary teachers in the province of Quebec. And we just released the first data today. And what was really interesting is that the elementary teachers, they told us that in the in the survey that indoors, their students were adding sedentary behavior, sedentary behaviors, 89% of them told us that it was they were almost always having sedentary behaviors indoors. And the same teachers told us that when they were doing outdoor activities, there was 89% of the teachers were telling us that they were almost always never in sedentary behaviors. So, it was really interesting for us because it confirmed that the teachers used active pedagogy. And we talk a lot about sedentary behaviors in the context of the COVID-19. So, it was really fun for us to see that, while they were learning in a subject. They were also moving and physically active. So, they were doing two things that are two benefits at the same time.
Fred Goldstein 18:19
So just by getting the classrooms outside and doing those you saw more activity amongst the students.
Gregg Masters 18:25
And if you’re just tuning in, you’re listening to Pop Health Week, our guest is Dr. Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beudet a professor at the University of Sherbrooke in Quebec Canada
Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beaudet 18:37
Exactly. And we didn’t ask teachers to do that we just took a picture of their practices. And we saw that that’s what was happening with them. So, it’s something really important.
Fred Goldstein 18:49
And were there any other findings you found that were unique from the study you did?
Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beaudet 18:53
I think it’s the most interesting thing for me, because it gave us another argument to favor outdoor learning but the teacher, we were also interested in the fact that the two main reasons that were given to go outdoors it was to connect students with nature and to use concrete situations to teach to make their learning meaningful. So, it was for us for the good reasons. It was not only to give a special a special hour to play outdoors, of course it’s it’s great to play outdoors but they were going there really to to apply some knowledge outdoors and it was also to connect students with nature. So, it was interesting to to have all these reasons that were stated in the survey.
Fred Goldstein 19:46
Did you find many other universities or colleges doing this as you looked around?
Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beaudet 19:52
And no, because you contact us
Fred Goldstein 19:56
Right
Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beaudet 19:57
We are we also had a journalist to contact in in Europe, from France, and she was really interested also. So, I don’t know I don’t hear a lot about about that. But people in different places in the world are interested about what we did. So, I think that there’s not a lot of institutions who are doing that. But I hope that there will be more in the future.
Fred Goldstein 20:20
Yeah, I know, when when I looked around and found the articles on the work you had done, I said, Wow, this is fascinating. There are only a handful of places I can think of in the world that had actually decided to move some classes outside and and see what they could do with that. And do you think this is something that is going to get broader pick up? Is the government or anything in Canada, considering how they might use this going forward? or things like that,
Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beaudet 20:44
if you mean in higher education,
Fred Goldstein 20:46
or or in, in K through in the middle schools and the K through 12? schools? I know, I know, here in the United States, the CDC, you know, our CDC finally put in a line that said, schools should consider outdoor classrooms. It’s only one line, but it’s a start. Are you hearing that now?
Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beaudet 21:04
in fact, what is important to say is that here in Canada, every province has its own education system, so it’s different here from Ontario, or British Columbia, but the Government of Canada, recommended to go outdoors, during to during the COVID-19, not only to for for, for students to play, but also to learn outdoors in outdoor spaces. So it was, for me a premier and the government of Quebec, I think that they are really encouraged by these results. I know that there’s a division of the ministry. We’re more involved in the in the in the sport, that are really, really encouraged by our results. And they want us to continue to work on that. But the government don’t want to impose to me to say everybody needs to go outdoors because it won’t be helpful. People will say, no, because it’s the government. And also, we are not used to do that. So, it’s out of the comfort zone for many, for most people. So, we need to let them experience it the first time and continue continue. So, I think it’s a good way because it’s always better when it’s better than top down. So now that’s what happened in here. So, I think we need to encourage the initiatives, but we need to let people continue by themselves.
Fred Goldstein 22:41
And so, did the university say you said you obviously were heavily involved in this effort? Did they put together a team of people to say, how are we going to go do this and solve this?
Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beaudet 22:51
Yes, I’ll just say because I’m interested in pedagogy. But there’s so many, many other things to think about. There’s a, there’s a place where the fire truck, how do you say it? The firemen in the truck for the firemen? Yeah, then where they need to there, there’s a specifications for the space for that. So
Fred Goldstein 23:11
right,
Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beaudet 23:11
consider after the way if they are some buildings, you will be renovate,
Fred Goldstein 23:17
to meet the fire codes or other other codes you have for that? Yeah
Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beaudet 23:22
So yeah, we need to think about many things like that, that I wouldn’t think but we were a big team working on on that. And also, the technology, if there’s Wi Fi, the division also was working on that. So, we worked together from the beginning. That was what we needed to make sure that we we don’t have too much problem.
Fred Goldstein 23:44
And the K through 12. In Canada, the younger children not in college, are those schools now beginning to say, Hey, here’s what we might want to do as a school. And looking at it more. Are you hearing that more from the schools themselves?
Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beaudet 23:57
Yeah, it’s interesting, because around five years ago, the schools were really interested in robotics. So, it, I felt, I felt that five years ago, everybody wants to say, yeah, we have a special program in robotics. And now I’m feeling that outdoor program is, is now the trendy thing. More and more the schools want to say, yeah, we go outdoors, and we want to connect students with the nature. So, I think that it’s gonna continue to add a lot of importance in the next years. I don’t know for how long, but we can see that there is something that is growing here. So, I wouldn’t have predicted before the COVID-19
Fred Goldstein 24:40
Well fantastic. We don’t have a lot of time left. Do you think I know a lot of colleges in the United States now are announcing the fall, they’re going to come back normally? Are they beginning to talk about that in Canada yet or not?
Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beaudet 24:52
I think so. But here, you need to know that we still have activities in our universities. Obviously, it’s not 100 the percent of the students who are there, but in our university, we wanted to have to encourage the activities for students. So now they can go on the campus to study together to work together. They have obviously rules to follow. But we still don’t know. You’re you’re going faster with the vaccine, in in the USA, but I think we should have our first does first shot everybody here in June. So hopefully in September, we’re going to go back to something that is more normal than what we experienced during the last year.
Fred Goldstein 25:37
Well, fantastic. Thank you so much, Jean-Philippe for coming on PopHealth Week. It’s really been a pleasure. And I’m looking forward to hearing more of your research in this area,
Jean-Philippe Ayotte-Beaudet 25:45
of course, and thank you for the invitation.
Fred Goldstein 25:48
Our pleasure. Back to you, Greg.
Gregg Masters 25:51
And that is the last word on today’s broadcast. I want to thank Dr. Ayotte-Beudet for his time today Do follow his work on Twitter via @ U as in university, Sherbrooke. That’s U S H E R B R O O K E and on the web at www.usherbrooke.ca. And finally, if you’re enjoying our work at PopHealth Week, please like the show on the podcast platform of your choice. And do consider subscribing to keep up with new episodes as they become available. For PopHealth Week my colleague Fred Goldstein and Health Innovation Media This is Gregg Masters saying please stay safe everyone we’re in this together. And we will get through this only together if we toe line on social distancing, proper hygiene and by all means do wear those masks in public. Bye now.